{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/9w08w39b63/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Dr. Richard Hayes and Marilyn Crow (Content Warning: Discussion of sexual assault)"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/246/original/CenterForHistoryFamilyMedicine_2c_RGB.png?1773344256","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eThis item is protected by U.S. copyright and related rights. It is being made available by the Center for the History of Family Medicine as its rights-holder for noncommercial use, including sharing and adapting the work. No permission is required for noncommercial use so long as attribution is provided. All other uses require permission from the Center for the History of Family Medicine.  Disclaimer:  The views presented in this broadcast are the speaker’s own and do not represent those of CHFM or the AAFP Foundation. The information presented is for general, educational, or entertainment purposes and should not be considered legal, health, financial, or other advice. \u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2022-04-13 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["video"]}},{"label":{"en":["Keyword"]},"value":{"en":["rural family medicine","family doctors","Arkansas","physicians"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject"]},"value":{"en":["Arkansas Academy of Family Physicians (corporate name)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English (primary)"]}}],"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eThis item is protected by U.S. copyright and related rights. It is being made available by the Center for the History of Family Medicine as its rights-holder for noncommercial use, including sharing and adapting the work. No permission is required for noncommercial use so long as attribution is provided. All other uses require permission from the Center for the History of Family Medicine. \u0026nbsp;Disclaimer: \u0026nbsp;The views presented in this broadcast are the speaker\u0026rsquo;s own and do not represent those of CHFM or the AAFP Foundation. The information presented is for general, educational, or entertainment purposes and should not be considered legal, health, financial, or other advice.\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Center for the History of Family Medicine"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Center for the History of Family Medicine"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/246/original/CenterForHistoryFamilyMedicine_2c_RGB.png?1773344256","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/194/762/small/Hayes_RichardandCrow_Marilyn%284-13-2022%29%28CW-Rape%29.mp4_1688055853.jpg?1688055855","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2312/collection_resources/97667/file/194762","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - Hayes__Richard_and_Crow__Marilyn_(4-13-2022)_(CW-_Rape).mp4"]},"duration":6311.6053,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/194/762/small/Hayes_RichardandCrow_Marilyn%284-13-2022%29%28CW-Rape%29.mp4_1688055853.jpg?1688055855","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2312/collection_resources/97667/file/194762/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2312/collection_resources/97667/file/194762/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/194/762/original/Hayes__Richard_and_Crow__Marilyn_%284-13-2022%29_%28CW-_Rape%29.mp4?1688055834","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":6311.6053,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2312/collection_resources/97667/file/194762","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2312/collection_resources/97667/file/194762/transcript/45019","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Transcript of Dr. Richard Hayes and Marilyn Crow Interview [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2312/collection_resources/97667/file/194762/transcript/45019/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Content Warning: Mentions rape\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Good evening, my name is Sam Taggart and I am in the home of Dr. Richard Hayes and his wife, Marilyn, in Cabot, Arkansas.  It is 4/13/22 and this interview is being done primarily as a part of “For Every Family, a Family Doctor” a book that should be done this summer.   \n\nDr. Hayes, I want you to understand that this standard questionnaire is just a starting place and that anytime you want to go off into any direction, talking about anything in particular that interests you or that you think might be of interest, please feel free to do so.  There is no such thing as babbling.... (All laughing)....you can’t do anything wrong here.\n\nThe best place to start is at the beginning: When and where were you born?  Talk about the circumstances of your birth, your mom, your dad, and those kinds of things.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Ok; well, I was born in Little Rock at Old St. Vincent’s.  I do not recall the physician’s name because my mom hasn’t been around to remind me of it for a while.  She grew up in Beebe and I assume there was a GP in Beebe at the time, but she wanted the best obstetric care that she could and St. Vincent’s had the reputation as being the best hospital; so, that’s where she wanted to go for her care.  I was born in Little Rock and grew up in Beebe.  My mom and dad met at the University of Arkansas after the war.  Daddy attended under the GI Bill and they met there.  He came to work in Beebe for his father-in-law, my mom’s father, at the family store.  So, I grew up in Beebe and graduated in 1969.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: What are your father’s names and about when was he born?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Lee Hayes and he was born December 15, 1926.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: What was your mom’s name and when was she born?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Betty Hayes and she was about a year older than him; not quite a year.  She has been gone quite a while and my dad just passed away five weeks ago.  He was 95 and a WWII veteran; he was proud of that.  He had a hat that said, “WWII Veteran” and said, “The hat cost me $9.95 and I’ve got probably $200 worth of free meals from that hat.”\n\n \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: (Laughing).....Did you have brothers or sisters?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: I have one younger brother who lives in Beebe.  He was a Shelter Insurance agent and is retired.  I had a sister who was killed in a car wreck....\n\nMarilyn Crow: In ‘88...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: In 1988 and no other siblings.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: What about extended family?  Did you have a large extended family either on your mother’s or father’s side?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Not really a large family....my mother had one brother, Richard Vernon Powell Jr., who was an interesting fellow.  He led quite a varied career.  He flew airplanes in WWII and I never could get the full story out of that; I don’t know why.  He had an MBA and a couple of PHDs.  He was a Presbyterian Minister for a while, a hospital administrator for a while, and the final part of his career, he was the head of a department at Oklahoma University in Norman, Oklahoma.\n\n  \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: This was your uncle?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: My uncle...Uncle Dick, maternal uncle; he said he even flunked the quarterback at Oklahoma University once.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: (Laughing)  That should make him be a popular fellow....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: In the 1960s....he said, “I was a tenured professor, but he still....” and he was not the kind to back down in any way on that.  Then, my dad had several siblings.  My dad grew up in Fayetteville and his parents died in ’59 and ’63.  My dad outlived all his siblings by 20 years.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Do you know where your families came from?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: She can tell you back to the 1700s; I mean, she’s traced the Hayes back to George Hayes in 1715 and the Powell line has been traced back to the 1600s.\n\nMarilyn Crow: Your father’s family came from Missouri, the Kansas City area in Missouri.....the great grandparents.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Were they English?\n\nMarilyn Crow: Uh...German; well, English and German.....English on the maternal side and German on the paternal.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Your father, Mrs. Hayes, ran a store.....\n\nMarilyn Crow: No....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: My grandfather and then, my father....my grandfather’s name was Powell, R.B. Powell, and he bought the store in Beebe in 1919 and then my father closed it in 2001.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: What kind of store was it?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: A general store....\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Just a mercantile...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: It carried everything salable at one time or another over the years.  When Maytag came out with the electric wringer washing machine in the 1930s, they were the largest seller of Maytag washing machines in the United States. My grandfather would get country preachers who had a small church and 80 acres...they’d load up their trucks with the Maytag washers and take them out to the farms where they would use a wash-tub and leave them and say, “We’ll pick it up if you don’t want to buy it” ...but, they never picked any up.\n\n  \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: This would’ve been in the teens, ‘20s, ‘30s....?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yes...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: This would’ve been when rural electrification was beginning.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yes...\n\n\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Yeah; yeah....the same identical thing....I’m from Augusta and the same identical thing happened in and around Augusta.  Woodruff Electrical Cooperative was.....3800 people showed up for the inauguration of Woodruff Electrical Cooperative in 1934.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: That was probably most of the county.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: It was really remarkable.....\n\nSo tell me about your childhood; were you raised in town or out in the country?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: In town.....the house I lived in until 1959, I was born in ’51, was like two or three blocks from Main Street.   Main Street was where the store was and then, I could take a left and go one block to my grandparent’s house...and the elementary school was essentially two blocks away.\n\n  \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Isn’t Beebe one of those little small towns where Joe McDougal wrote about in “Towns Facing Railroads”?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yes...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: There’s a railroad there that runs right down through the middle of it.... \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, Beebe was named after Roswell Beebe who built the railroad.\n\n \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Ok...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: That’s where the name came from.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: I didn’t know that.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: So....yeah, the main part of town T’d at the railroad and the company, the family business, was you know one and a half blocks from the railroad.  The cotton gin was three blocks south of the \n\nrailroad, which my grandfather owned....and when cotton was king, they’d bring the cotton wagons to town on Saturday to gen the cotton and the wagons would be backed up about eight blocks up Main Street.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Do you know if your family had any relationship to the Enderlin family over in Conway?  They were the cotton gen people In Conway....Conway and Greenbrier....  \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Uh....I’m not sure....\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Tell me about your childhood; did you enjoy our childhood? You were growing up between “51 and ’68 or ‘69....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: I had a heck of a time.  I mean, we played Army all the time; of course, this was just a few years after WWII and you know, everything on T.V. was combat and stuff like that.. So, we were running around and shooting each other or throwing rocks at each other.  Then, my grandfather had a couple of farms; the hill farm, which is just hill country, and we’d go up there on the weekends and drink out of old springs and stuff running around.  There was a farm south of town where he’d always keep a couple of horses and a wagon and he’d hook up a wagon and me and brother with two, three, or four other cousins...we’d load up in the wagon, go out into the woods,  and build Indian forts and stuff like that.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Did you hunt and fish? \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, later; there was no family tradition of that.  My grandfather was too busy working and my father was too poor to afford the luxury of hunting and fishing in the depression. Being rural in Beebe, my brother and I just started doing stuff like that; you know.  We both grew up to be pretty avid hunters and fisherman; turkey hunting, deer hunting, and .....\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: So if you were to go fishing in Beebe, where would you go fishing?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: That would’ve been just ponds and stuff like that; but then about ’68, we started going to the Little Red and trout fishing and been fishing up there since then.  We’ve been elk hunting out west, deer hunting, and antelope hunting....South Dakota, we’d go pheasant hunting almost every year.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Were you engaged in sports when you were in school?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: No, not really; when I grew up, sports was basically....you know, you had one baseball team in town, a little league team, and there weren’t all these other leagues for kids to recreate and stuff and you know...I mean, the uniforms were wool....wool in Arkansas in the summer.... and you know, the coaches were usually the principals and they were mean and so, you know, sports was not real big to me.  Boy scouts, I was real big in boy scouts...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Really; how long did you stay involved in boy scouts?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Oh well, I went all......I became an Eagle Scout when I was 14 or 15 and stayed real active for two or three years after that.  I was in the Explorers for a little while.  The National Jamboree in 1969, I was on staff and that’s where I watched the moon landings, the first moon landing, and then later...even in college.  After that, I was an advisor or leader with an Explorer Post in Little Rock and we would take the teenager boys and girls usually kayaking and canoeing to out west and over to the Smokey Mountains; so, I was active until my late 20s in the Scouting programs.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Did you enjoy school?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Pretty much; you know, school in Beebe...we had 69 kids in my graduating class and 50 some-odd of them, we had been together for...from first grade through to the end. You know, the teachers were nice and most of them were middle-aged and older married ladies, or at least in elementary school.  I had some male teachers in high school, but it was a pretty small community and so, yeah...I enjoyed school and did pretty well. I studied hard, but not real hard and graduated third in my class in high school. It was a poor school; you know, probably Augusta was a poor school district...everybody in Arkansas was poor until we started getting out of the 1960s.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Right...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: And we were still suffering from reconstruction.\n\nBut, I don’t really remember being aware that we were poor.  I don’t remember being aware that our school was not....\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Were there any of those teachers, either in elementary school or secondary education, that had an impact on you in terms of what you would do with your life?  \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Not singularly...I mean, you know, teacher so-and-so allowed me to reach this great revelation about this or that...not really.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Was education a big deal with your family?\n\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, it was just expected; my mother and father both had college educations.  My father was the first....was he the first one to have a college degree in his family?\n\nMarilyn Crow: I think so.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: So, it was just expected to do well in school and go to college.\n\n  \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Obviously...you mentioned that you had 69 kids in your class; did you develop a group of friends... you only live 30 miles from Beebe now...did you develop a group of friends over those high school years that you’ve stayed close to? \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: No, not really; because after I left, I had no real contact with any of therm.  Now one of the exceptions; one of my partners, Dr. Harold Short, was a year younger than me in Beebe and we went all the way to be college roommates and is one of my partners now....so in that respect, you know with him, we don’t know how long we’ve known each other.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Was there anybody in your family: grandparents, aunts, uncles, whoever that had an impact on what you would do with your life and what you would end up doing with your life?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: It was all pretty much...well, my mom was kind of a domineering kind of lady and you know, she takes a lot of credit for my becoming a physician.”    \n\n(Laughing)   \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Do you remember a point of her saying something or doing something pushing you in one way or another? \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: No....no, not really you know, there is not a lot of points of...”Here’s when I hung around with doctor so-and-so”...or “I’m going to be a family physician now”....no, not really.  All my life, I just kept plowing on and deciding I want to do something and then, do it.  You know, I decide and drove over the Buffalo River.....I drove my grandparents and my great aunts over to a funeral in Missouri when I was 16 years old, they let me drive a Cadillac; ok...and I drove over the Buffalo River and I said, “I’ve heard of that”...well two years later, Dr. Short and I canoed the entire length of the Buffalo River.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: This was in high school when you were 17 or 18?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yeah...yeah...so, you know....or “I’d like to”....”Gee, Loyd Bridges...sea hunt...scuba diving,.”...I became a scuba diver later.  I read about sailing; you know, we’ve sailed all over the Caribbean and the South Pacific and stuff like that.  I’ve been kind of self driven in things like that.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Were there any crises in either your childhood, junior high school, and high school time era in your family or social life that pushed you in one direction or another?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: No, not really...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Was your family religious? \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, we attended the Beebe Methodist Church regularly; my grandmother Powell was the organist for 50 years, plus or minus.  My father sang in the choir for 48 years and then, they kicked him out for not coming to choir practice on Wednesday night. (Laughing)  When I was in the boy scouts, I got the God and Country Award.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: In high school, do you remember anything about the academics?  Again teachers, not that they pushed you in one direction or another, but things that you enjoyed....did you enjoy the Sciences, Mathematics, Literature, or History?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, I had always enjoyed history and one of my history teachers was kind of, you know.....he was a younger teacher and probably started teaching us right after he got out of college; we kind of enjoyed him.  I always have been interested in teachers, excuse me, in history because of “They who do not heed the lessons of history are bound to repeat them”....that sort of thing; so, I enjoyed history....I enjoyed biology.....My science teacher in high school taught biology, chemistry, and physics; his name was Chesley Robinette and every once in a while when you got Chesley talking, he’d say, “See that?  That was a German tiger tank in the Battle of the Bulge.  I woke up on a door and they wanted to take my arm off, but I wouldn’t let them and that’s why that arm is shorter than the other.”  He was the high school science teacher.\n\n \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Did your education at Beebe High School prepare you for what you did in college or when you got to medical school?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, it all built pretty well.   You know, I went to Hendrix and was a Biology Major.  My class of Hendrix ’73 had the most biology majors by number...at Hendrix even...and we had the most biology majors who became physicians.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: I’m going to come back to Hendrix in a minute, but what informed our decision about where you would go to college and when did you start thinking about that?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: I started thinking about that, you know, late in high school and my mom went to Hendrix.  Some of her best friends and lady friends in life had been at Hendrix with her and so, she liked the idea.  You know, she kind of wanted to keep her oldest boy kind of close where she could keep an eye on him; so, Beebe to Hendrix...35 miles or so...and I didn’t particularly want to go to Fayetteville because it’s so big. I don’t even remember where else I considered...I don’t even remember, but I enjoyed my time at Hendrix.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: During high school or in college, did you work?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, during high school and during vacations from college, I worked at the store in Beebe; but, I didn’t work on campus or anything like that.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Did you ever think that you would go into the store, into your father’s business? \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, it had kind of been.....yeah, you know, especially when I was in junior high and the first part of high school and the counselors were like, “what do you plan to do with yourself?”...”well, I’ll keep working at the store and I’ll learn to repair TV’s and stuff like that.” There wasn’t room; you know, my brother stayed there for a while and I had cousins working there.  There really wasn’t maybe not room there for me...but, they said, “Well, you know, if you want to come back here, you need to go to college.”\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Yeah....so, when did you guys meet?\n\nMarilyn Crow: ‘85....’84.....\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: So, I’m jumping the gun here....\n\nMarilyn Crow: ‘83...’83ish.....we got married in ‘86” and so, it was like ‘83ish.  I worked at Blue Cross and my best friend’s boyfriend was one of his college mates and so, we met that way.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Ok, we’re going to come back to that; I’m jumping ahead....\n\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: It’s fine.....you can edit it any way you want to...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: That’s right; I can edit it anyway I want to....but, we will come back and talk about that, because I do want to talk about that..... But, let’s go back to college; what were your initial impressions in that first year of going into Hendrix?  You have gone from a small school that was rather poor to the most academic school in the state, clearly.  How did you do that first year or two...did you enjoy it...had you been prepared for it? \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: The first year, I still didn’t...I wasn’t really sure...I had not decided to go to med school; ok...uh....\n\nMarilyn Crow: You wanted to be a disc jockey.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Close, but not accurate; I used to be pretty good at public speaking and stuff...you know, having been a physician for 40 years, mostly my conversations now are...”Now, where does it hurt?\n\n(Laughing)......I don’t have those stay up till past midnight with other intelligent people and having long conversations anymore......but, I have won awards for public speaking in FFA when I was in junior high and high school and I was President of the Arkansas State Beta Club and made a lot of speeches...I kind of enjoyed speaking at stuff like that and I thought, “what can I do with that?”...Well, there was ...remember the American Sportsman on ABC with Kirk Gouty....I read something that Kirk Gouty was making $300,000 a year and I said, “Maybe I’ll go into TV journalism kind of thing...\n\nThat’s for me..... (Laughing) \n\nOf course at Hendrix, the only kind of thing they had was theater arts, you know, and I think I may have said that I was a theater art’s major initially, but never did anything with it.  I just took basic courses the first year.  They had a pass/fail system that started when I was there; you didn’t get a grade...maybe grades were not relevant and so they just did a pass/fail.  In the first \n\nyear, did I have trouble adjusting; no. No....I mean, it was nearly all Arkansas kids from all over the state.\n\n     \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: But, they set a pretty high bar...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, yeah...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: They did set a pretty high bar ...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, yeah...\n\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Did you do well?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, I graduated with a 3.3...if I recall.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Yeah, I’d say you did well... (Laughing)....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: You know and of course when I did decide to go pre-med, I had to do a lot of catching up on science courses. So, I was always in the lab when all the business majors were at Oaklawn....like George Polisy of Bank OCK.\n\n \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: (Both laughing)....Was there anything about college...any “Aw Ha” moments where you said, “I really like this” or where you really had to study hard or do extra work that you didn’t have to do when you lived in Beebe?\n\n \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, you know, I had to study a lot more; it was...you know, high school was really pretty easy and you just put in...I studied hard, but I didn’t study real hard, you know that sort of thing. In high school, my great aunt was my math teacher and so, I didn’t get away with anything in advance math or calculus or anything.  At Hendrix, you know, organic chemistry was hard...and physics was...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Do you remember your organic chemistry teacher?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Oh, I had Schidler...(Laughing)....yeah, everybody remembers Schidler.....\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: (Laughing)....I have asked that question about 90 times of people who have gone from Hendrix to Southern State to Arkansas State and everybody remembers their organic chemistry teacher. \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Oh absolutely...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Everybody...\n\nMarilyn Crow: I bet _______ could tell you hers, too...\n\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yeah....that was Schidler; yeah...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Were there any other teachers that stand out in your mind?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Art Johnson was the head of the biology department and about the time I graduated...he was a hard teacher and to catch up on my science stuff, I’d go to UCA during the summer and take science courses...it just kind of worked out that some of the hardest Hendrix science courses, I took at UCA during the summer; I just don’t know how that worked out.\n\n(Laughing)...\n\nArt Johnson said, when I was a senior, “I sure enjoyed advising you on your projects and everything, but I never had you in class; have I?” and I said, “Yep Dr. Johnson, that just didn’t work out; I missed that opportunity too.”   (Laughing)... \n\n \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: So, you were born in ’51 and you graduated in ’69....went to Hendrix in ’69 and ’70 and graduated in ’73 with a degree in?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Biology...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: At some point in here, you had to start thinking...”Ok, I may go to medical school” or “I might try to get into medical school.....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: It was towards the end of my freshman year; my roommate was pre-med and he went to medical school, a radiologist down south Arkansas somewhere.  You know, so I kind of....that kind of got me...I’m kind of going like, “Man, I’m not going to med school; that’s hard work and I’m a naturally lazy person”....\n\n(Laughing)...\n\nYou know, I don’t want to put myself through all that.  I need to find a rich woman to marry...but finally, I just said, “Ok, hell, I got to bite the bullet and start taking some science courses and try to get into med school.” \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: So, you ended up going to college for four years; there were still a few people out of that time frame....it was just about an era that had just about passed who would go for three years and get 90 hours of credit...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Not many...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Not many; no...They were just beginning to fade....and went into medical school.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Not many....\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Did that ever cross your mind?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Oh, I didn’t....I didn’t have the grade points and stuff like that.  My friend, Harold Short, was a year younger than me and he tried that.  He tried after three years and he didn’t make it in and his grade point was higher than mine.  You know, we’d take the same tests and he always made...I’d make a 90 and he’d make a 94; that kind of thing.\n\n  \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Yeah, I had those kinds of friends.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: And he would stay up and watch Johnny Carson till it was over and I was studying the whole damn time.\n\n(Laughing)....\n\nBut, I did not get in; I applied...back then, you wrote off and got a packet, you know, from the schools and my mom said, “Well, you need to apply at Harvard, Yale, Vanderbilt, and Tulane”....and I thought, “I aint getting into those places” but, you know, I did what my mom said.  My first rejection latter was from Vanderbilt and you know, it was kind of like...”Dear Piece-of-Crap”..... (All Laughing)....”we have reviewed your admission and can assure you that you in no way meet our high standards”....and I mean, it went on, and on, and on...and I wept.  I said, “Well, I guess I’m going to have to be a biologist for the Game and Fish Commission after all.”   Now, this was Vanderbilt and this would’ve been in late ’72.....Ok, let’s go to 1988....I finished my residency in ’82 and was board certified; six years later, I’m going to recertify my boards and so, Jim Webber and I take two weeks off to study for our boards.  We first go to Vanderbilt for a family medicine review course and you know how it is, 8 o’clock in the morning to 5 o’clock lectures all day long and Friday we are in there kind of punch drunk and saying, “We’re going to Kentucky to do another week.”  Now, this was all Jim Webber’s idea.....Jim Webber loved to study and learn and everything.  So, it’s Friday and we are in there lecturing and they have a moderator who gets up and introduces the speakers and tells you that you don’t have 15 minutes to go to the bathroom; you’re running late and have to come back in five minutes and everything...and there was this old guy in there and he’d say, “Put that slide back up, I didn’t have time to see that slide.  You people be quiet, we’ve got to get started” and it was like, “Who is that?”  So, you look and it says, “Dr. So-and-So, Dean of Admissions Emeritus”..... and the name came back to me.                     \n\n(Laughing)....\n\nFrom 1972 to 1988....and I said right then, you know, sotto voce...”that’s the old son of a bitch that said that I’ll never get into med school” and everybody laughed and somebody said, “You people get quiet back there; quiet down back there.”  So, I didn’t get in the first round and went to see Dean Marvin at the med school; I walked into his office and he was flipping through my chart.  He doesn’t say, “Hello” or “Come in” ...his secretary just opens the door...he takes my folder and just kind of throws it over into the corner of the floor and says, “Son, what can I do \n\nfor you today?”  I said, “Well, Dean Marvin, I’m trying to get into med school and I’d be a really good doctor; I promise. I was a good student at Hendrix and I just came to your counseling on advice...you know...I think I’ll go to graduate school and work really hard so that you’ll let me into med school.”  He said, “Well, I guess you can try that if you wanted to” and that was kind of the end of the interview with the famous Dean Marvin.  So, I went to grad school at UCA...\n\n      \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: What year was that?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, I started the summer of ’73 after I graduated from Hendrix and I got my masters in ‘75...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: What did you Master in?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Biology....medicine and biology; my Master’s thesis project was the Statistical Analysis of Select Organisms of North Cadron Creek, Arkansas.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Oh my...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: At the same....when I finished in my course...you basically did a course or a year of course classes and then you worked on your thesis...and your research and stuff like that...and maybe a couple of other classes.  Well that second year, I got in the PHD program in the Department of Pharmacology at UAMS and so, I was actually finishing up on the thesis and was taking freshman med school classes at UAMS; I took everything except Gross Anatomy.  So, I got rejected twice and...The first two times I applied, my interviews were with PHDs in Biochemistry with unpronounceable names.  I don’t know if that was part of it or not; but, my third interview was with one of the Deans. You know, I hung around in the Dean Suite a lot at UAMS and one day I was talking to one of them and asked, “Do I have to take the MNPI again? You know by now whether I’m crazy or not...” and he laughed and said, “Oh, you have to take the MNPI every year” and I said, “Ok...and oh, what about an interview?” and he said, “What do you mean?” and I said, “I don’t know how my interviews have gone in the last couple of years.”  He said, “Well, who did you have your interviews with?” and I told him and he went, “Oh...well, interview with me this time.”  So, I got in the third time around.\n\n       \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: So, you went to medical school in ’76.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yeah; now the second time, my mom said, “Well, you just need to go talk to cousin Wilber” as in Wilber D. Mills; ok.  His wife, Polly Mills, had been half raised by my grandparents and Wilber called me in 1968 and said, “How are you doing boy?” and I said, “Fine, cousin Wilber” and he said, “I’ve got a spot in WestPoint; would you like to go to WestPoint?”...in 1968....\n\n(All laughing)....\n\nI politely declined...he said, “Well, I can get you in the Air Force academy or _____” and I said, “Oh Cousin Wilber, I’ve got my heart set on going to Hendrix”...of course, he was a Hendrix graduate.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: How was he related to you?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, his wife...I don’t know for sure; his wife was.....do you know?\n\nMarilyn Crow: I don’t know the connection...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: His wife was, like I said, halfway raised by my grandparents there in Beebe and he may have been a distant relative too.”\n\nMarilyn Crow: I’ll have to research that.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: So, I went to visit him, he was at this house out in Kensett, and Ms. Polly answered the door and said, “He’s on the sleeping porch in the back.”  I went to the back and he was propped in bed in a silk smoking jacket and cigarette with a long Ebony cigarette holder and a telephone that was about that big...”Come in son and have a seat. I’m talking to the President and I’ll be right with you.”  Well, as an Eagle Scout, I could not remain seated while a US Congressman was having a conversation with the President of the United States...so, I stood at attention.\n\n   \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: (Laughing)...Yeah...yeah....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Then, I talked about the med school situation and he said, “I’ve got a big check that I’ll be giving to Dean Shorey in a few weeks and I’ll just take care of this while I’m in town.”  Well unfortunately before he went to UAMS, he got fished out of the tidal pool and so, I didn’t get in that year either.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: But, you did get in the third time you tried.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yeah...\n\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: So we are now at ’76, what about your first two years of medical school?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, you know, there was a lot...it was mostly volume of material.  They told us...one of the Deans told us, “You know, as college graduates, your vocabulary is now 5,000 words and we are going to add 9,000 more words here in the next couple of years”...so, it was mostly volume.  I took a course in grad school called “microbial genetics” which was by far the hardest course that I took in grad school, but it’s just such a volume. You know gross anatomy; back then, gross anatomy lasted halfway through the spring semester and apparently now they...I don’t know how much anatomy they teach anymore. \n\n      \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Right...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: You know, I just worked hard and a wonderful group of people in my class of ‘79.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Really?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yeah; yeah, we were the 100th graduating class. When we started our senior year, the Deans came in and said, “You’ll be glad to know that you are the sentinel class and this year we’re going to have a lot of special things...” and we were going, “Special things...yeah...ok.”  They said, “We are going to have medical ethics lectures, we’re going to have violin concertos, and we’re going to have art shows” and of course, we were thinking free beer and food and stuff like that...we still had pretty basic needs, you know...\n\n \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Right...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: So, they did all this waiting for us to clap and everything and literally somebody said, “Well, what are you going to do for us?”...so, they put a gold border around our diplomas is what they did for us.\n\n(Laughing)... \n\nBut, well, for instance...when we got our packet before school started it said, “And you will be required to live in the dorm before you can register as a student”...well a bunch of us got together and you know, there was one or two attorneys in the class and they said, “They can’t do that; they can’t just bracket us together just for financial reasons to fill up the dorm.  They can’t do that and we’ll file some paperwork.” So, we sued the school before we were even officially a class and so, that was kind of our attitude.  \n\n(Laughing)....\n\nLike when we were sophomores, they got a new head of pathology named Sanford I. Arrouth from Harvard and I mean, they just couldn’t resist having somebody there on staff from Harvard because knowledge comes straight from God to Harvard. He was the world’s expert on pseudo-pseudo-hypothyroidism...well, we did not have a good experience with him and his teaching methods, and so, we boycotted the course.  We said, “We’re not showing up for pathology and not going to take any classes or anything until...” ...because he would insult us and stuff and say, “We’ll I’m used to a far higher standard of students at Harvard than obviously you people are here, so I’m going to have to readjust the way I do my tests and stuff”...so...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: How long did this fellow last?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Not too much longer after that.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: I was going to say that I don’t ....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Not too much longer; you know, Glen Baker later became the head of the department.  He and the private pathologist used to...he pissed all of them off.  They used to teach for free and we’d go to their offices like over in the old Doctor’s Office building and stuff... and look at slides and \n\nstuff like that; I went to his office and looked at my mom’s breast cancer slides from the mid ‘60s.....but, they all were going to quit working with the school and so, he didn’t last much longer after that.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Were there any teachers in that time frame on the opposite side who had a positive influence on you...who you remember fondly and you remember clearly his name; like the organic teacher?\n\n  \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Uh; not really....not really.  When I was a junior and we got on the wards, there was one older nephrologist that we kind of liked, but I would have to think for a while to remember his...\n\n    \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: It wasn’t George Ackerman was it?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: No...no\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Because he wasn’t older ....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: No, I’d have to think on it for a while.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Was there anything about medical school....obviously in the first two years, particularly in the clinical years, that you said,”I really do like this”...”I enjoy this”...or “This could hold my interest for the rest of my life”...?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: In the first two years?\n\n Dr. Sam Taggart: No, the second two years.....I’m sorry, after the first two years...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Oh...well, you know, I think my first clinical rotation as a junior was anesthesiology and you know, I was like, “This is kind of neat putting people to sleep and stuff.”  Next was OB and I kind of enjoyed OB...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Did they still let you do a lot of OB at that time?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: I did some....I did some; yeah.  I did a lot of OB in my residency later on and I kind of enjoyed OB.  Pediatrics; you know, you go to a pediatric clinic and all you hear is screaming kids....all day long. God love them, I don’t know how pediatricians make a living since all they get are office visits and losing money off the immunizations they give.  I don’t know how a regular pediatrician makes a living. I like kids I just can’t have a steady diet of kids.  I like ophthalmology. Surgery, of course, surgery back then, I mean they were the fighter pilots; if you wanted to be the top of the heap, you were a general surgeon. Now, I don’t know what they’re getting for general surgery residents; I mean, I don’t know.  Does Medicare pay a general surgeon $250.00 for an appendectomy; that’s not....you know, I don’t know about some of that now.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: What about your senior year; was it still an elective at that time and everything in it was like....? \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yeah...yeah; I went to Arkadelphia and did a family medicine, six weeks with John Bailey and Jerry Mann was his partner at the time.  I went to Fort Smith and did cardiology. I went to Fayetteville and did orthopedic surgery with the team docs for the Razorbacks.  What else did I do.......I don’t remember.  I tried to do dermatology, but Jansen was the head of dermatology back then.  He was in private practice and the head of dermatology and so, he didn’t let Arkansas guys in his residency.  When I tried to do a rotation, he said, “We’re full” and I said, “Well, I’m going into family medicine and I would really like some dermatology.”  He said, “Where are you from?”  I said, “Beebe” and he said, “No, I don’t have room for you.”  He didn’t want competition in central Arkansas.\n\n Dr. Sam Taggart:  (Laughing)....At some point, you were bound to start thinking about ....“This is what I’m going to do when I get through” ...what are the things that pushed you or what informed your decisions on pushing you towards family medicine and where you did your residency and internship?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: I don’t know...you know, family docs that I was around was some of the nicest docs that I was around...usually in a better humor.  There is always some variety....subspecialists are going to do about, you know, four things and use about six medicines; it could be the same thing all the time.  Now when I was in med school, there wasn’t any technology and what I mean by this is no CT scanners, no MRIs and the most exciting thing a radiologist did was a barium enema; ok.  There was no heart caths and the only thing a cardiologist did was put you on dig and take you off of dig.  There were no scopes other than a rigid sigmoidous scope and so many of those miraculous things that we have now were not even thought of back then and if I had known some of those were coming, I might have chose differently.....I might have; but you know, family medicine docs that I hung around with did everything: hospital practices, surgery, OB, minor procedure...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: You mentioned Dr. Bailey in Arkadelphia; did that time or preceptorship that you spent with him as a role model have an impact on what you ended up doing in your life?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: I don’t remember whether I had already decided before I went and spent my time with him, but I enjoyed it.  Boy, he was a hard worker and worked me to death; you know, like I say doing surgery, OB, and everything.  I don’t remember when I made the decision.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: So where did you do your internship?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Jackson, Tennessee...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: What prompted that or informed that decision?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, my best buddy in med school went into family medicine and you know, we were looking around for residencies and of course, I looked all over.  I knew that he had gone over there and \n\nvisited and I said, “Hey, how was that...” and he didn’t talk about it much...(laughing)...because he was afraid that there wasn’t enough slots and he didn’t necessarily want me to compete with him.  But, I checked it out; a big hospital....you know, Jackson, Tennessee is the biggest....well, that’s about the only thing there is between Memphis and Nashville..... and the only residency program there.  So, you’re not competing with all these other residents for patients and we had privileges in everything...privileges in the unit, all the OB we wanted, and that sort of thing.  I was the first doctor in the state of Tennessee that gave IV Verapamil; I was working on call one weekend and some patient was in PAT or SVT...I don’t even remember...and the nurse said, “Dr. So-and-So, the head of cardiology, went to this meeting and he brought back a couple of vials of this new medicine” and I said, “I’ve heard of that; here let me read about it.”  Now, can you imagine a second-year resident today going ahead and giving a brand new drug in ICU?  (Laughing)...Yeah, they probably don’t even let family medicine residents at UAMS in the ICU and probably make them be quiet and whisper when they walk passed the door.  But back then, we did pretty much everything.  George Shannon was the residency director and George was later on on the Board of the Academy and ran for President.  He was a double boarded internist in family medicine and George was just a hard worker, smart, and just didn’t take any crap off of anybody.  We had all the babies that we wanted to deliver; more than what we wanted to deliver and like I say, we had good relationships with private physicians there at the hospital.\n\n      \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: So by this time, they had combined internship for the family practice residents?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yeah, they all...\n\n \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: So, you choose all the same.....so, you did three years of family medicine residency there.....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yeah...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: I’m getting the idea that you really enjoyed the residency program.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Probably; but, I worked real hard.  I mean when we were doing OB, you know, every other weekend you are on from Friday morning until Monday at noon and you didn’t leave the hospital.  You know, we had a heavy patient load and we were the only family medicine residency program in Tennessee that financially was in the black.\n\n     \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: How would that program have compared to the AHEC programs in Arkansas? \n\n \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, of course, I looked at some of the AHECs....\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: And this was what year?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, I graduated in ’79...so, my residency was ’79 to ’82.  I looked at Fayetteville and Fort Smith and of course, at Fayetteville...who was the bow-tie wearing guy....”\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: That was Lee Park....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Lee Parker...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Lee Parker, Jim Patrick, and Lyndon McGhee...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: And Lyndon McGhee...Lee Parker said, “Of course, you know, the first day you get here...we are going to help you with your nursing home education and give you 250 nursing home residents to start with” and I didn’t like the sound of that.  The one in Jackson was just kind of a step above most of the AHECs.\n\n      \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Was it a similar structure?  Are there similar types of regional family medicine programs in Tennessee similar to the ....there was an AHEC; it wasn’t necessarily called AHEC, around the country.....\n\n \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yeah...they didn’t or they weren’t...their health education center concept was not in Tennessee; these were just residency, per family medicine residency programs, and there was two in Memphis...one at the University and one at the other hospital in East Memphis.  Then, there was the one at Jackson, Chattanooga, and up in the tri-corner’s area....or whatever they call that up in ..\n\n   \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Bristol and Elizabeth City...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yeah; yeah, up in there.  The American Academy President came out of there several years ago...a guy with a long beard and white suits...he was an interesting type of person; that tri-cities area, they have interesting residents coming out of there.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: (Laughing)...Well, that’s an interesting area of the country...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yes...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: From there...West...to the area North of Nashville.....a lot of anarchists and a lot of really interesting, interesting, interesting population there...  \n\nWhen you finished medical school and started your residency program, did you end up with a lot of debt?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: No, my grandfather financed my education.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: So, you weren’t faced with this business of.....and you weren’t married at this time...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, of course, med school was cheaper than Hendrix.\n\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Yeah...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Med school was cheaper than Hendrix and so, no; I was ok.  I lived relatively frugally and I always had a car and a house when I was in med school.  My house only cost $28,000.\n\n    \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: At some point during your residency, you had to start thinking, “What am I going to do with this and where am I going to go?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, yeah.... when you transition into practice...“Where the heck am I going to go?”\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Right... \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yeah, I don’t remember when the process....I don’t remember when that process started, but how I wound up in Jacksonville...of course when I was in Jackson, Tennessee, we moonlighted in small emergency rooms in the area; we ended up in about four of them to cover the weekends and one of them was in Lexington, which is 45 minutes east of Jackson, and the one that I worked in the most.  My best buddy, Reggie Henderson, and I worked there a lot...well, one of the physicians there got to know us and liked us.  Well, he grew up with Jerry Chapman who was with Crestview Family Clinic and he called Jerry and said, “I’ve got two good ones here that I’m going to keep one and let you have the other.”\n\n \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: (Laughing)....That was nice of him.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: So, Reggie stayed in Lexington and is still there now.  Reggie stayed in Lexington with Charlie White, that’s the doctor’s name in Lexington, and I came over and interviewed with Crestview.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Where is Lexington in relationship to Paris Island and that stuff on the north border of...?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, it’s not...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: It’s not very far from there...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: No, it’s not too far; no, it’s not too far.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: One of the Dibrells ...there has been a Dibrell family practicing in medicine forever in Arkansas and there was a young man who was practicing, Mark Dibrell, in Mountain View and he ended up over there about that same time frame that you are talking about.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, Paris Landing is kind of south and then, Kentucky Lake is to the north.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Yeah, that area is where I was..... (Laughing) so....so, you just had a doctor who divided you up saying, “He’s going this way and he’s going that way”.....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yeah...yeah...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: And you came over and met with Dr. Chapman; did you ever think about going back to Beebe?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, the advice back then was don’t go home to practice because everybody is going to take advantage of you or just think you’re a dummy; you know, because they knew you when  you were young dumb kid.\n\n \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: That’s right...when you were a kid.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: But yeah, I toyed with that idea; but, I never considered it seriously.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Were you thinking seriously about a town the size of where you were born and raised......or were you even thinking in those terms?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: I didn’t; I was just looking for a good practice. You know some good physicians to join in an established practice and doing the things that I thought I wanted to do.\n\n \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Were you good in business?  You had worked in the store when you were a kid and in college, so you knew the idea of business.......were you good in business as it relates to medicine?\n\n  \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, I think so.  I don’t know if you can be good because it is so complex and that’s why over half of the doctors now go to work for Baptist or some other evil empire...because it’s such a nightmare trying to keep up with everything. To my knowledge, we are the largest independent family medicine practice in the state; if you combine the Jacksonville and Cabot clinics...we are under the same tax ID.\n\n \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: So, when did that clinic that you ended up going into start and who were the people who were there?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: When I got to the Crestview Clinic, it was Bill Durham, George McCrery, Les Anderson, Jerry Chapman, and Dale Calhoun and we had three clinics.  We had the Jacksonville Clinic, Les Anderson in Lonoke, and Jerry Chapman in Cabot. My first year, I worked in all three clinics; when Les or Jerry was off for a day during the week, I would go and work their clinic.  You know, Crestview had been around....I don’t remember exactly...probably 10-12 years when I joined.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: But not a long time.....   \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Not a long time; no....not a long time...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: And you joined Crestview in what year?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: In ’82...July 1st....\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: And there were 5 or 6 of you.....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Durham, Anderson, Chapman, McCrery, and Calhoun; I would’ve been number six.  Now Stan Keller as an internist was also there...but he didn’t stay very long and went back to become a pulmonologist.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: So when you decided, “Ok, I’m going to go there and practice”...in that first year, was medicine what you thought it would be?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yeah, pretty much....\n\n    \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Ok....I think at that time, y’all were still doing a lot of OB....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yeah, big OB practice and doing surgery.....we did our own sections, appendectomies, hysterectomies, cholecystectomies, and hernias....\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: You worked primarily at Rebsamen....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yes...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Did you work in any other hospitals?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: No; I had privileges at Baptist Memorial in North Little Rock, but they were kind of anti-family practice; so....\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: This would’ve been in 1982 and about the time that you two met......\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: You can interview her now while I take a break...\n\nMarilyn Crow: Oh, it’s more like ‘84ish...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Ok; so, he had been in practice for 2-3 years....when y’all met.....\n\nMarilyn Crow: Yes...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: And you worked at Blue Cross Blue Shield.....your full name is?\n\nMarilyn Crow: Marilyn Fay Crow.....so, I had been married before and was going through a divorce when my friend introduced me to....well, I went to function, a party, that they were giving and Richard had  come in for that ....so, I had met him; but, I didn’t really...we hadn’t gotten together.  So about ’84....I’m not sure exactly when we started dating, but we got married in ’86.  Richard was... (Laughing)  what attracted me to him was that he did things that I like to do; like canoeing, fishing, and I hunted with my brothers and...you know, way back when I was growing up I was hunting with my brothers; my sisters didn’t really do any of that, but.....he was doing the things that I like to do and we’d get together and canoe and he’d take me fishing. \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Where was your family from?\n\n\nMarilyn Crow: Originally from Jonesboro, but we moved to Columbia, Missouri.  So, I grew up in Columbia, Missouri and I moved back here with my first husband and we divorced.”\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Y’all got married; did you have children?\n\nMarilyn Crow: We were unable to have children, so we adopted a two-day old baby girl and named her Jamie.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: About when was that?\n\nMarilyn Crow: That was ‘91.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: 1991, so you have one daughter.....\n\nMarilyn Crow: One daughter only; no grandchildren and probably will not have grandchildren.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: So you guys, when you first got married, did y’all live in Jacksonville or live out here? This is actually almost, now with the freeway, like the same city.....\n\nMarilyn Crow: Yeah...we had a little...he had a little house in a little subdivision in Cabot and so that’s where....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Just over across the hill from that Wal-Mart there.\n\nMarilyn Crow: Yes...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: I mean, back then, I could tell you how many minutes and seconds it took for me to get from my house to the OB floor.\n\nMarilyn Crow: The clinic...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Laughing....\n\nI even had a Porsche back then.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Your wife was saying while you were gone that one of the things that attracted her to you was that you did a lot of the things that she liked to do, canoeing and outdoor stuff; have y’all continued those things over the years?  \n\nMarilyn Crow: Uh huh, basically...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: We try...we’re going fishing in Alaska in August.”\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: I know that you mentioned that you were a hunter and she has mentioned that she had done some hunting with her brothers....\n\nMarilyn Crow: We’d go rabbit hunting and squirrel hunting; but when Richard and I first got married, we had a little hunting club down south Arkansas and I got my first deer...one week after having thyroid surgery, which was in ’88.  So, here I am with a hole in my neck and I shot a deer; then I claim the turkey I shot...I shot one turkey one week before Jamie was born; so, that is my claim of hunting.\n\n Dr. Sam Taggart: Where was the hunting camp?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yonkerpen, its north of...\n\nMarilyn Crow: Well, it’s over there on the levy past...east of Dumas.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yeah...north of Dumas and Watson....north of Watson.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Ok; so, you’re over there on the river or close to the riverbank....yeah....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Inside the levy...but, we’re no longer members down there.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: So we are now four years into your practice.....3-4 years into your practice when you got married....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yeah...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: You were busy at this point, but how long did it take for you to start getting busy in your practice; do you remember?\n\nMarilyn Crow: I don’t know, but Richard was always on call; especially on the holidays because everybody else had family and he didn’t.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: So, when did y’all move out here?\n\nMarilyn Crow: In ’93; we built this house in ‘93.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: So ya’ll have lived here a good long time; 30 years of so.\n\nMarilyn Crow: Oh yes...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yeah...we’ve been married for 35.\n\nMarilyn Crow: We were actually the first ones to buy a lot here.  Other people started building before, but we purchased and got the lot first.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: We were the first ones to buy a lot and the first one to started building a house...\n\nMarilyn Crow: But it took us a long time, because this is a bigger house.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: A couple of them got theirs built before us.\n\nMarilyn Crow: Yep...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: So was there a point where you started getting active in the Arkansas Academy of Family Physicians? Do you remember that?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, pretty early on; you know.\n\nMarilyn Crow: He was a member when we got married; so...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yeah, I was...I was.....\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: It would be hard to be in a town with Jim Webber and not be a member.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, yeah....when I was a single man and if I hadn’t been grocery shopping, I’d go over the Jim and Cynthia’s eating...(all laughing)....and if I didn’t show up for a couple of days, Cynthia’s kids would say, ”Dr. Richard may be sick, you need to call and find out where he is.”\n\n(Laughing)...\n\nMarilyn Crow: Before we got married, he would shop around for the best dinner in town.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: To see whose having what that night...you know one of my partners in the Cabot clinic, Joe Shots....the big white house right at the corner where you turned in here....were you with me when I met Joe and Lisa?\n\nMarilyn Crow: Uh huh...at the Webbers ...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Webber used to have Webberetts....med students and residents...you know out in his practice and he said, “Come over, I have a resident and supper” and I went over there.... we met Joe and Lisa.  Joe was about to finish his residency and even had an offer someplace to sign and it took me about five minutes to realize that I wanted him.  The next day, I brought in my computer printouts of all my expense and income from my clinic and told him what the deal was and he signed up and would’ve been my partner....but, I met him at Webbers.  You know, Webber one time told me that he was going to get me on the AFMC Board or something like that and I said, “Is that what I want to do?’ and he said, “That’s what I want you to do Richey” and I said, “Ok; ok whatever.”  He came in and said, “You didn’t get on the board at the AFMC” and I said, \n\n“Well, I’m heartbroken about that Webber” and he said, “Well, I’ll get you on the board at the Arkansas Academy”....and so...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: So, you joined and were on that...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: So, then I just did whatever Carla told me to.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: (Laughing).....Ok; that’s a good point to start...Carla.  There are probably a generation-and-a-half of family physicians in Arkansas who don’t remember when Carla Coleman wasn’t the Academy of family Physicians.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yeah....\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Up until she retired.....what kind of relationship did you have with Carla?\n\nMarilyn Crow: Oh my gosh...she was the best.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, I think that we had a pretty close relationship.  I mean, we talked a lot personally...”How are you doing” or “I’m sorry to hear that your dog is sick” or when she was having health problems and then, her husband and that kind of stuff.  Then as President on the Board, like I say, I just did whatever Carla told me to.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: At the time that you were on the board, or when you started getting active, do you remember what the problems....problems may not be the right word....challenges that were facing......\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: They are the same now as they were back then.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Talk about that a little bit...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, you know......membership, activite members.....you know, every year when you form all your working committees...you have to have a committee on membership to go out and engage all the members and get everybody to pay their dues and join up; that’s always been an issue and probably the worst problem now since the current generations do not socialize with each other or anybody.  I do not know what the current generation of young physicians and stuff do; they don’t belong to professional organizations and just sit and surf their iPhones, I guess.\n\n  \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: I’ve heard that echo from several different people...Dan Knight and several other people....talk about the relevance of medical organizations: The American Medical Associations, The Arkansas Medical Society. Is there anything that the Academy was doing back in the days when you first started that made it more relevant to your life than now?\n\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, you know, there was more socialization amongst the board members and at the academy meetings and stuff.   There was more family activities and stuff.  Now, I’m the head of the Arkansas Academy Foundation right now and we are trying to revitalize that; I’m talking with \n\nMichelle about that and it’s the same issues right now as it always has been...fundraising and such.  She said, “Well, let’s do a silent auction” and I said, “Well, when we had silent auctions, we had Cheryl Anderson running it.”  Cheryl Anderson would go around and.....if you knew Cheryl Anderson, she would....\n\nMarilyn Crow: She got mink stoles and....\n\n  \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Yeah.... (Laughing)...\n\n Is that Les...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Les’s wife; yeah...she’s a...I don’t know how you describe....she’s one of those busybody ladies who is always into everything and you know, knows everybody and wants or isn’t afraid to ask for anything....Well Michelle says, “Which one of the board wives can handle this?” and I said, “I have no idea.”  You know, if you don’t have board meetings face to face anywhere anymore much less a weekend at Lake Hamilton with the families and the ski boats and everything like we used to...\n\n      \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: When did that stop?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: 20 years ago.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Do you think it’s the people in the organization or just the nature and the change in the social structure of things?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: It’s both; I mean its society.   My dad was in the Kiwanis Club for 50-60 years or whatever...The Kiwanis Club and the Lion’s Club and Sertoma....\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Rotary..\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Rotary and all that...it used to be a big deal with lots of participation and stuff.  Daddy said, “Well, you know, we just don’t do as much and have as many people come to the meetings or care about joining or anything.” For years I’ve asked young physicians my age and now obviously a lot younger, “Hey would you like to be on the Board of the Academy?”....and they’d say, “well, how many meetings a year is it?”...” four or six or something like that”....”Oh, I’m too busy...I’m too busy for something like that.”  Where when I was brought up that to be asked to do something like that was considered...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: An honor...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: An honor to serve your fellow physicians and through them, your fellow citizens and your patients and so on ...because maintaining a strong academy and a strong family physician is  always good for patients.   \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Mahlon Maris was I think out of the main stream of family medical political...by the time that you came along....I interviewed him and he talked about the fact that at end of days when he was active, the good medical meetings where you got good pertinent continuing education was a really important part of generating membership; do you think that that is true anymore?\n\n \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Not as much as it used to be.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Do you know why?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, there is a lot more CME available.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Ok.....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: You can pick up your iPhone and get 20 hours here just by clicking a button if you wanted to.  Availability is one thing and then people don’t want to take the time off...you know, “take a day off from my busy practice”....\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: County Medical Societies and Southern Medical Associations, all of those, were important as a source of continuing education for a long, long, time and when I first started practicing, the County Medical Societies in the 2-3 counties that I lived in still had a meeting.  Do you think that day is completely gone? \n\n      \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Yeah....yeah, I’ve never been active in the County Medical Society.  The Arkansas Medical Society, all my work with the Arkansas Academy, I kind of got tired of meetings.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: What were the things that you’ve done related to the Arkansas Academy that were the most gratifying and that you felt like produced results? \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, I think the two big things are going to be the annual meetings and then, every other year trying to prevent disasters in the state legislature.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Ok....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: When I was president, most of that year was taking up with legislative issues and stuff like that.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: In what year?  If I remember; I have it somewhere...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: When I was president?\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Yeah\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: .....I don’t even remember....\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: It’s been since 2000....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Jamie was like 8 years old.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: It’s like 2002 or 2003... Somewhere along in there.  I have it in my notepad.\n\nDo you remember any other issues? Talk a little bit, you mentioned this earlier, about nurse practitioners......obviously there has been an uneasy alliance among physicians and nurse practitioners in the state of Arkansas.  There are large numbers of family physicians out there in the state that use....  \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: A friend of mine, C. Rodney Baker now deceased, was an internist from Fayetteville who came to Little Rock to help us start the nurse practitioner program in the mid ‘70s.  There was 6 RNs who helped him start the nurse practitioner program and he said, “Richard, you have never seen such a big man hating and doctor hating bunch as those women.”  When I was a med student, I remember walking down the hall, minding my own business, and there would be a bunch of nurse practitioners and students and they’d say, “There is one of those doctors, we care more about our patients than them” and I was thinking, “What in the world was that all about?” So, you have that issue, ok, and then the other issue is that they are just not trained well enough to take the place of doctors.  It’s horrible with these nurse practitioners in all these quickie clinics where you can go and not only get the wrong diagnosis, but the wrong treatment for that diagnosis at the same time; I see that day after day after day. In 2020, I saw 19 patients with fractures who had been to quickie clinics and seen by nurse practitioners and those fractures had been missed....and they were all easy fractures to see; you flip them up on the screen and there it is right there.....like four broken ribs without even magnifying them or anything.  Supposedly they are going to these Baptist quickie clinics and stuff and those e-rays are supposed to be over-read by radiologist; well, this is 20 patients in 2020 and none of them ever got any calls from anybody about their missed fractures.  Now if a nurse practitioner wants to work for a sub-specialist, a sub-specialists sees about four different things and uses about six different drugs...well, that is a narrowed enough area where they are in close supervision and they can indeed be an effective extender; but to try to take a doctors place, nope.  If I was a malpractice attorney, I think I’d have about a billion dollars right now.\n\n   \n\n Dr. Sam Taggart: What about PAs?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, it just depends on how they are utilized.  We have a PA in our clinic who can’t read x-rays.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: In the time frame of primarily 2000 and 2022, the present day, what are the biggest challenges that you see in Family Medicine and where do you think those things are going?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Of course, you know, it’s been switching over to computerized electronic medical records ....\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Right...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: And you know my efficiency just tanked after that...sold a bill of goods; you know, my work as a delegate to the American Academy, whenever the topic came up I was screaming from the back of the room, “Bullshit...Bullshit” you know.  There are no real good studies that showed any better clinical outcomes with computerized medical records; it just takes a lot of time and a lot of clicking.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: What about dry-labbing and computerized medical records?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: I deny that...I deny that a thousand times; I deny that.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: OK...ok... (Laughing)...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Every day, I click alert and oriented times three...a whole lot where I haven’t actually asked the relevant questions to make sure they are alert and oriented times three.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: I’m reminded of nurse’s notes from 11-7... (Laughing)....when you come in in the mornings and they were dry-labbing; every nurse’s note looked identical across different charts.  \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Where do you think we are going with electronic medical records?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Oh, I don’t know....I mean every other medical journal or throw away paper you get talk about the problems with it, but nothing’s changed.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Do you guys use any voice recognition software?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Uh....well, I have drag and speak and I use that mostly with communicating with my nurse about lab results and stuff like that.  I’m a fast clicker, you know, and I fought as long as I could, but when it was time, I worked the hardest at finding good software and I was the first doctor certified by the company.  You know when rape is inevitable, lay down and enjoy it; so....I’m a clicking fool.  We started out carrying a little tablet thing from room to room with a little bitty, itty bitty, little bitty tiny lithe joy stick and I said, “No, I want a full size screen and a mouse.  It’s faster and more productive.”  You know, you’ve got to look at productivity if you want to make a living.  For instance, you have to look at patient flow, interruptions, and how to optimize all that. For instance, my software will print out a lab order...ok, send them to the lab for a UA and CNS...hit print, go out to the printer, put some more paper in it...you know, restart it and all that...what happens while I’m out in the hall near the printer? I get ambushed by my nurse and other nurses...”So-and-so is down stairs and they want you to park...” blah, blah, blah and then, I go back in finally to give this piece of paper to the patient, “Ok, go to the lab”..they say, “Well, I thought of something else that I wanted to ask you while you were out there.”  Ok; so what do I do, I take a little sheet of paper and write UA, CNS and send them to the lab and make the nurse do the rest of that stuff....there is a thousand things like that.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Do you use scribes at all?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: No.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Does anybody at your office?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: There is one doctor doing that.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Do they find it efficient?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: I don’t know; about a month ago, there was somebody else in the doctor’s lounge and I’m real subtle about this and say, “Who the hell are you?”....”well, I’m his scribe”...”Oh ok.”  So, that’s all I know there. Now Calhoun used to use a scribe and it was kind of a disaster, but he didn’t care.  If I was a sob-specialist, I’d have a scribe; because it the same thing...see four things and do.  But, I look at my patient list coming in; ok, they are coming in for A...the nurse goes in and checks them in and no, they are coming in for B...I go in there and start talking to then, they want to start talking about C, D, E, F, and G.  So all the work that has been done by everybody... from the scheduler to the nurse to start getting that note ready and everything....that is all blown away already.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Does telemedicine play any role in your practice?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: I do some telemedicine visits, but I don’t particularly like them.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Do your patients like them?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, it sure is convenient for them.  They can lay down on the couch and sometimes when I’m looking at them, they won’t even sit up straight or turn the light on. One time I thought...I’m doing this on my iPhone and I say, “It looks like they answered”...but all I see is a couple of little.....it’s just a little light from somewhere on the other side of their house reflecting off their corneas; you know.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Covid has changed a lot of things.... Has it made permanent changes in the way that you practice medicine?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: I don’t know; I try not to think about it.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Just for a minute; think about it....and if it has changed things, how will it have changed things?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: One thing is...you know, I don’t spend enough time in the exam room taking care of the patient and I spend even less now.  Because used to a lot of the times, the patient gets in there and they are ready and I go in and do my computer stuff, inputting stuff while I’m talking to them, and now a lot of times, I’m doing that in my office before I go in to see them just to cut my contact time down with them...to reduce me getting Covid and bringing it home to my loved one.  So, that is one thing and telemedicine is probably not going to go away; that is the main things that I see and can think of.  But we’re, our...the last four weeks, we’ve only had two positive Covid tests at the clinic and six positive influenza tests in that amount of time.\n\n  \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: What do you think  the next...we’ve had Swine flu, Hong Kong flu, Covid, and now 3-4 different variations off of Covid...what’s the next one going to be?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: I try not to think about it.  A few years ago, they told us it was going to be the bird flu, a avian flu, and I mean, they were really looking forward to that; the WHO was really looking forward to that and were disappointed that they weren’t able to take over the United States with Covid to use that.\n\nMarilyn Crow: SARS...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: So five years from now; you’re 70 now...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: 71 next month.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: How long are you going to keep practicing?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: I’m probably going to quit at the end of this year.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Ok, is there any particular reason why you’ve started to think about retiring?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, I have been thinking about it since the early ‘80s.\n\n(All Laughing)...\n\nAnd for the last 5-6 years, I’ve started thinking about it every day somewhere between 9:30 and 9:45 in the morning.\n\n(All Laughing)...\n\n“What am I doing here?”  You know, the patients are harder to take care of now....\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Why?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Well, the ones 40 years ago who had all this stuff, they were dead.\n\n  \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Yeah...\n\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: They are much more complex now.  I mean, these nurse practitioners think that they can come in and take care of some of these patients that I’ve got, my EMR only will send 12 diagnoses to Medicare and I have patients get mad at me because I try to get them to stop at 12....I mean literally,” I paid my $20 and I have six more things that I want to talk about”....”Please ma’am; \n\nplease, I am confused.  I am lost; you are complex and let’s stop, slow down, and review.”  You’re talking about heart disease, strokes, diabetes with peripheral vascular disease, diabetes with retinopathy, diabetes with chronic kidney disease, anemia of chronic disease, arthrosclerosis of the aorta, depression, insomnia....I only saw about five of those this morning.\n\n        \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Yeah....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: And you write them their prescriptions and you know three of them get sent back from the drug store saying, “Not covered.”  But, the drug stores don’t tell you what is covered.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Speaking of drugs and drug stores, talk about narcotics just a little bit.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: I like them.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: I know; I understand... (Laughing)...but, what is being fanned as the opioid crisis....    \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Wait...wait...the federal government says that we undertreat pain; pain is the fifth vital sign and that’s why you have to do the pain scale from 1-10....it’s required by the federal government and I see patients every day who have a pain of 13 on a scale from 1-10....what do you do...well, you know.  I have lots of chronic back pain patients who’ve had surgery and the neurosurgeon says that he can’t do anything more for them.  So, they see pain management doctors who don’t particularly manage pain and then, they come back to me and they still need a lot of medicine...what do you do? You go to election and they say, “well, you need to try them on low dose non-steroidals and some yoga”...you know or something like that; it’s like all your insomnia lectures.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Now, you are going to retire sometime soon...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Very probable.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: And you’re only 70; so, you’ve got a good 20-30 years left....what are you going to do with that 20-30 years left?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: She has that all planned out.\n\n (Laughing).... \n\n She wants me to transplant all those oak trees in the front yard.\n\nMarilyn Crow: No, I want you to cut them down.\n\n \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Harold Short and I, both the same age, wanted to cut down and essentially combine two practices into one and work halftime.  Our partners should know because we also wanted our overheads cut in half and you can’t cut down...you know, my overhead is 50%. and if I go half time and reduce my income by 50%, our overhead is still the same and out at aero.    \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Yeah....so how many are there of you in practice now?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: There are seven doctors and one PA.  As a doctor, you know, you can’t slow down much because then the wolf pack catches you.  I’ve had Mike Steer a general surgeon classmate of mine who tried to slow down...yeah ok, your income goes down and you don’t work as hard, but you’ve still got to pay the same amount of rent and same for your computer and all that kind of stuff and so, he couldn’t do it.  Gus Hernandez and Steve Cliff, the gastroenterologist, the same way...they tried to find a way to slow down.  It’s not really fair for your partners to pay your rent for you and so, it’s hard to slow down.\n\n  \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: If you do retire, will you do other medically related things? \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Probably not....now if something presents itself, you know, I might; but I don’t know.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: I’m amazed at how many people work for the VA a little bit or work for Blue Cross Blue Shield...(Laughing)...\n\n \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: I know two physicians who have gone to the VA and they both are regretting the hell out of it.  One, an OBGYN who I have known since Hendrix, she went to the VA and tells her friends, “Don’t tell anybody about this, but I hate that place” and the other was one of my partners here at the Cabot clinic and he was the same way....”Oh, they told me I get to teach and everything and I have a reduced load so I can teach”...well, it was all lies....so, it won’t be for the VA.  I might call Julie Garner and go down to the residency program in North Little Rock and sit around and tell the residents the truth about licensing.\n\n  \n\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: I find that that residency is kind of interesting because you’ve got Cleveland, you’ve got Dan Knight, and you’ve got Julie...Les is going to be working with them, I know.....so, would that be interesting to you?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Maybe, I mean, she’s tried to hire me; you know.\n\nMarilyn Crow: He’ll need something to do..... (Laughing).....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: My wife’s view....\n\nMarilyn Crow: While he was waylaying with his surgery the last three weeks, and so-on, and so-forth...he would sit on his computer a lot.... and then play all his little oculus games.... and I told him that he couldn’t retire.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: It is an interesting residency; I called Julie and said, “We want to hire some new doctors” and she said, “I’ll spread the word”....I called her back 2-3 time and she said, “Well, I can’t recruit for you, but I’ve given them all the information.”  I just never hear from them; I guess they are all just waiting for Baptist or somebody to come and recruit them and give them a guaranteed \n\nincome and that guaranteed bonus that they never seem to get....because guess who is keeping the books...\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Yeah....yeah.\n\nOk; now, this is a question for both of you and this is not in the questionnaire....this is not Gonzo journalism and so, it’s not a “gotcha”....\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Ok.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: 100 years from now, you’re going to be a picture on the wall....what do you want your great, great, great grandchildren to know about you?  Not just as a physician, but as a person and as a couple. \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: 100 years from now, will they even care.....\n\n \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: They’ll care.....what do you want them to know about you?\n\n\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: I think the fact that I was a physician would be something that they would probably want to know and be valuable.  That I always tried to be good man and a good American; I loved America...I loved America from the 1950s and I was raised by the men who fought WWII.\n\n        \n\nDr. Sam Taggart: What about you Marilyn?\n\nMarilyn Crow: Well basically that I was the friendliest and most out going...I don’t know...That I loved life, I loved gardening, I love genealogy, I loved finding out about the people from the past, and I loved my animals.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: This will be my last question unless you have other questions that you would like to answer that I have not asked.  The same....I know that you said that your daughter may not have children...but there are nieces and nephews and their extended family...those kids that you have taken care of as patients...when they get older, what do you want for them?  We know what we had..I was raised in the same time frame that you were...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: I would like for them to live in a free and just America; I don’t mean just by like the BLM definitions and stuff...\n\nMarilyn Crow: Yes...\n\n Dr. Richard Hayes: To be able to live under the founding precepts of our country.\n\n Dr. Sam Taggart: What about you Marilyn?\n\nMarilyn Crow: Well, to be able to live and not have to worry about whether they are doing the right thing with everybody else...I just want freedom for \n\neverybody to live their lives and not have to worry about being blackballed or whatever they are calling it these days.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Cancelled...\n\nMarilyn Crow: Cancelled...I mean...\n\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: There should be meritocracy....\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: meritocracy?\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: You get to be on the Supreme Court because you are a brilliant jurist and not because you are some kind of check-off box.\n\nMarilyn Crow: Yeah, well, everything is a check off box now.  But yeah, I grew up free.  I grew up and whatever I wanted, I worked for; it was hard work.  I dedicated my grownup life to being a mother and a good wife; I hope.  I haven’t caused too much problems.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Well, I can tell y’all that I have really enjoyed this and I hope that you have enjoyed it.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Oh yeah...absolutely....\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: This is something......when you read the transcript and say, “Oh, I didn’t really mean to say that” we can always edit it out or if you want to add something that I didn’t add, you can...\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Kind of like the Congressional record....\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Absolutely...we can type in whatever you want to; this is your interview......once we get it edited and all that stuff, I will send you a copy.\n\nI will do about 1,000 more profiles that will be in the book and I will send that to you and let you look at that to make sure that that is ok.\n\nDr. Richard Hayes: Ok.\n\nDr. Sam Taggart: Alright, I’m through.  That’s all the questions that I’ve got; thank you very much.  That was enjoyable; I really enjoyed that. \n\nDr. Richard Hayes: It can always be said that I was honored to be a companion of four black labs.\n\n(Laughing)...\n\nMarilyn Crow: We have animals; that’s for sure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2312/collection_resources/97667/file/194762#t=0.0,6311.6053"}]}]}]}