{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/rf5k93366x/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Dr. Marian Bishop (Part 3)"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/246/original/CenterForHistoryFamilyMedicine_2c_RGB.png?1773344256","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["1992-06-08 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Interview","Oral History"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Dr. William Ventres (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["audio file"]}},{"label":{"en":["Keyword"]},"value":{"en":["American Academy of Family Physicians","family medicine","family physician","Dr. Marian Bishop","Society of Teachers of Family Medicine"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject"]},"value":{"en":["Dr. Marian Bishop (personal name)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English (primary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eA continuation of the oral history interview conducted by Dr. Ventres on May 5, 1991 and June 1, 1992. This is the final part. \u003c/p\u003e (general)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eThis item is protected by U.S. copyright and related rights. It is being made available by the Center for the History of Family Medicine as its rights-holder for noncommercial use, including sharing and adapting the work. No permission is required for noncommercial use so long as attribution is provided. All other uses require permission from the Center for the History of Family Medicine.  Disclaimer:  The views presented in this broadcast are the speaker’s own and do not represent those of CHFM or the AAFP Foundation. The information presented is for general, educational, or entertainment purposes and should not be considered legal, health, financial, or other advice. \u003c/p\u003e"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eA continuation of the oral history interview conducted by Dr. Ventres on May 5, 1991 and June 1, 1992. This is the final part.\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eThis item is protected by U.S. copyright and related rights. It is being made available by the Center for the History of Family Medicine as its rights-holder for noncommercial use, including sharing and adapting the work. No permission is required for noncommercial use so long as attribution is provided. All other uses require permission from the Center for the History of Family Medicine. \u0026nbsp;Disclaimer: \u0026nbsp;The views presented in this broadcast are the speaker\u0026rsquo;s own and do not represent those of CHFM or the AAFP Foundation. The information presented is for general, educational, or entertainment purposes and should not be considered legal, health, financial, or other advice.\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Center for the History of Family Medicine"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Center for the History of Family Medicine"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/246/original/CenterForHistoryFamilyMedicine_2c_RGB.png?1773344256","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3629/collection_resources/150962/file/278386","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 2 - Bishop_Marian_Pt4_92_a.wav"]},"duration":1598.07009,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3629/collection_resources/150962/file/278386/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3629/collection_resources/150962/file/278386/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/278/386/original/Bishop_Marian_Pt4_92_a.wav?1750873500","type":"Audio","format":"audio/wav","duration":1598.07009,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3629/collection_resources/150962/file/278386","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3629/collection_resources/150962/file/278386/transcript/81410","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Dr. Marian Bishop interview transcript 3 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3629/collection_resources/150962/file/278386/transcript/81410/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I want to start out by asking if you had any thoughts or feelings that came up after our last interview that you wanted to touch on?\n\nHonestly, I hadn’t thought about it again. We’ve just been through a big C.E. course here this weekend with 200 people and I had a talk to give at that and I haven’t though anything more about it. \n\nI know that folks are busy like yourself. I want to touch on a few more specific areas to tie a few things together. I guess the first one was that I sensed you had two mentors at the University of Missouri, Vernon Wilson and Sherwood Baker?\n\nNo, just Vernon. \n\n \n\nJust Vernon. You mentioned that picture of the Wright Brothers that he had. I was wondering if there are any other kinds of things or thoughts or messages that you took with you through his mentorship, that you’ve taken with you into your career?\n\nI think I learned a lot of administrative techniques from him. Remember, I had an academic administration Master’s degree. But in terms of applying the basic information I got in the degree to a medical school setting, I think he helped me a lot. Sherwood came a year after I did and I would not say he was a mentor. In fact, I think he learned a hell of a lot from me. I wouldn’t want you to say that. \n\nAnything else from Dr. Wilson that comes to mind?\n\nYou know, I did go to Washington with him. He left Missouri and went to be the Administrator of the Health Services Mental Health Administration which had everything in it at that day in time but FDA and NIH. He literally had everything else. He had the CDC, Mental Health Administration, what’s in HRSA now. And I took a year and a half leave from medical school and went in and worked out of his office, as did several other people. And I just learned a lot about federal government and operations from that experience.   \n\nAnything else?\n\nNo.\n\nYou had mentioned in another point how you would like to see more family medicine faculty as deans in medical schools. And that seemed a real important point.\n\nI think until we have the equal number of family physicians, and I would emphasize family physicians so I suppose true primary care internists and pediatricians also. But my discipline is family medicine so…and I would maybe add deans out of the preventive medicine area. We’re just not functioning on an even playing ground. \n\nWhat would it take to get deans from either family medicine or…\n\nI don’t know. First thing, we’ve had a fairly slim pickings to just fill our Chairs in our division. So maybe we just need more people. And I think we need more who are interested in administration and the headaches that are involved with that. \n\nWhat kind of headaches are involved? I’m not an administrator, I don’t know.\n\nWell, funding pressures. I think most medical schools, the funding is controlled by the department chairs, not by the deans. So their funding, legislative pressures where it’s a state medical school, to get the schools to do what the state views that their needs are. Research pressures to compete and be a nationally-recognized research institution.   \n\nWhat are the pleasures of being an administrator? Kind of the opposite end of things.\n\nI don’t know, I’ve never been a dean.   \n\nHow about just in being in administration? What kind of pleasures have you had through administration?\n\nI like being able to facilitate the success of my colleagues. I like seeing programs succeed and faculty being part of that and involved in developing and implementing new programs. And though faculty can do that on their own, I think it takes somebody with a broader view to kind of see the bigger picture than the small individual programs. You’ve got to have somebody develop and run the programs on a day-to-day basis. But to maintain them and make them fit into the broader activities of a department or a medical school, I think it takes a different viewpoint. And I like sharing that viewpoint and supporting colleagues. I get along very well with other department chairs and I like working with them in the other disciplines.   \n\nThat’s a pleasure?\n\nI like it. I don’t find meetings as stressful as some other people do.   \n\nAny other pleasures or satisfactions that you’ve garnered out of being in administration?\n\nI enjoy tackling problems and trying to find options to meet the problems. \n\nAnother area I wanted to touch on, Pat Kroll said that you had gone to a recent NAPCRG  meeting and it had a lot of ritual and that’s something you felt had been lacking in the Society of Teachers of Family Medicine.\n\nShe’s wrong. I have not been to a recent NAPCRG meeting. I haven’t been to a NAPCRG meeting in ages. \n\nI can’t remember. It was some meeting in Canada that she mentioned. Might you recall?\n\nNo, I haven’t been to Canada in ages. I think the comment that I made is that over the years we have lost some of the sort of traditions that support an organization. I’ll give you an example: for awhile we didn’t hardly know when the old President retired and the new President of STFM took over. It was kind of one year thrown in, the middle of the dam.   \n\nOn the dance floor perhaps?\n\nYeah, a little more formality is helpful so that you establish some sort of tradition. And perhaps what she was saying was that I do think the AAFP is very good with sort of their more formal passing on of the gavel and recognizing their awardees and sort of having a more traditional or expected, not traditional in the sense that it never changes. But a more expected kind of activities that say when one year starts and when another year ends and here’s sort of how we recognize individuals. We used to have an installation luncheon for officers in STFM. It was one of the noon luncheons. That was before we went to using one of the lunches for candidates’ speeches. And I thought we hit a low point, whatever year it was. And I honestly don’t remember which year it was, where sort of in the middle of the evening dance, somebody got up and said well, my year is over, here’s the new President.   \n\nCan you tell me why you see that tradition as being important?  \n\nIt’s sort of like why don’t we just install the President of the United States at some offhand event? It’s a symbol of here’s sort of the next step in our development. Why don’t we give awards in the middle of the night at a university, you know? We usually do them at some special event where people understand what’s going on. I don’t know why, I just do. And I do think some of that has been rectified. We’ve gone back to an oath of office, which is even a little more formal than I would do. \n\nLike at this year’s past meeting?\n\nYes, and I think they did that last year too, but not at the dinner. But I believe last year was the first year there was an oath of office. \n\nI wanted to share something with you, Marian. I guess I need to at this point. I’m not exactly sure how to say it, but I feel a little inadequate in my interviewing of you. I feel like I haven’t been able to ask the questions that I need to get at the meaning of why some things were important to you. I know a lot about the events that took place. I have a lot of data. But I guess I’m missing some pieces. I feel like I’m still confronted with you as a mystery of why you got involved with things or what the importance of things were. And I think that’s my job as an interviewer, as a biographer, I have just felt inadequate through last week’s interview. I went over the interview pretty finely and I’m not sure where to go now.\n\nMaybe you’re making too much of it. When you look backwards, it seems like there ought to be some kind of momentous thing happen, maybe like Saul on the road to Damascus. But when you’re involved in it, it just happens. You know, one thing leads to another and another thing leads to another and another thing and there aren’t any big momentous kind of lights that appear. And maybe you’re just trying to make too much of it. I just thought it was an exciting time. I enjoyed the people. I thought the contribution of the discipline was right for our healthcare delivery system. I still do. I still enjoy the people. I still think it’s an exciting movement and am sort of astounded with kind of the recreation in the last couple of years of the support system for family medicine. But in terms of going back and saying what great thing happened, I don’t know that there was a great thing. It just was each evolving step sort of took it to someplace else. And I don’t know that my career has had any great sense of direction. You sort of move with the flow. And when an opportunity comes that looks good and you think it’s a fit with you and your family at that time, you take it. But maybe you’ve got a different ability than I have, but I just don’t think it’s all that deep or impenetrable. It just was a series of maybe a lot of little steps and they all fit. A few missteps that you want to recoup from. But in general, sort of an exciting event that I didn’t really think very carefully about at the time. It just happened. \n\nAnd yet I went through…I remember we talked about the organizations that you were involved in and you were a major player in some of these organizations.\n\nI was at the right place at the right time. And that’s part of success and part of being involved, being at the right place at the right time. \n\nBut I could have been at that same time. I mean there are other people who didn’t get involved with the National Board of Medical Examiners, the Health Professions Educational Advisory Council, the National Health Service Corp, STFM. I was talking to someone, and maybe they were wrong, but were you the president of ATPM as well?  \n\nYes.  \n\nOther people didn’t…\n\nWell, just put it down to my exceptional skills. (laughter.)\n\nBut I guess I’m wondering why…You didn’t have to choose those things. I mean you took a hugely active role. I guess I feel like I haven’t done the job to figure out, outside of just you’re at the right place at the right time and your extraordinary skill, what those meant to you. Why was it important to be…\n\nI don’t know at the time I viewed it as extraordinary. It’s all cumulative. You didn’t do them all at one time. One sort of came, another sort of came, another sort of came. So they’re all kind of cumulative, not in one great big club of all of these activities at one time.   \n\nDid you have any goals in terms of leading these organizations and areas? I don’t know, maybe you should be asking the questions. Maybe I’m not even communicating myself very well now. I feel somewhat, as I said, inadequate in all this. You’re the one who wrote the book on interviewing, how…\n\n(Inaudible name) and Don Ransom, I mean did they have any great and glorious plans? \n\nNo, I don’t think they had any great and glorious plan. I think what I’m missing is not necessarily a plan but kind of they were… At least I asked the questions in such a way that they responded through there like this is what it meant for me at the moment. I don’t remember when Don wrote that JAMA article. He ran upstairs and just saw that family medicine wasn’t moving in the way he thought it was. And this meant a lot to him at the time. And I guess I’m missing that piece of what your involvement in any one of these, at any one time.\n\nI don’t know how to say it any other way. I think each time that an organization came up, there was something that I could do. And I did. My contribution when I was President of STFM was to sort of solidify the organizational structure so that more key people could be involved. And out of that came these working groups and task groups that are still in place today. We were financially strapped and we moved to solidify and establish a contingency fund. All of that I felt was very positive and contributing. I didn’t necessarily write a big article that would change the thinking of the discipline. I did structural things. And I find that exciting and pleasurable. I didn’t start out to do that. As I got into the job, these seemed to be things that needed to be done. So I did them. I just finished, for example, writing the long range planning document for STFM that will come up at the Board meeting. Marge asked me to chair the Long Range Planning Committee which is a standing committee of the STFM because she needed help. I said okay, I’ll do it. Now I think we’ve come out with a very good document that the Board can now look at and take a look at where we need to be in another five years. What is mysterious about that? To me it’s not mysterious. I have the capability of doing it. I enjoy doing it. It’s a contribution to an organization that means a great deal to me. Always has. So to me it’s just not a big deal. It’s a contribution I enjoy doing and something that will help STFM maybe in the next five to ten years. \n\nAgain, your contributions have been structural, as I see them, in terms of organizational. Really strengthening organizations, as I read what we’ve talked about. Maybe I should go back even at the beginning. You said you always wanted to be an administrator. You said at one time you thought about being a college president. Maybe I should even go back further in terms of your childhood development.\n\nOh, let’s not. I don’t want to go into any…\n\nI’m just trying to think of why you choose this role.\n\nI have no idea. And I don’t want to go back into any Freudian analysis. Why would you want that for this article anyway? \n\nI want to find why you’ve chosen this direction.\n\nBecause I have the capability and the skill to do it. I do not have the capability and skill to do an Intellectual Basis for Family Medicine, like Gayle [Stephens]. I’m not a philosopher. I’m a pragmatist. I’m a doer. I’m an organizational person. I have the skill. I don’t know, maybe it’s genetic. Maybe I’ve got a gene for it and somebody will find that gene.   \n\nIf I can ask, there are going to be a lot of new administrators, or that’s your hope. New deans. You said there’s a dearth of administrators in family medicine and we’re having a problem with that. What would your recommendations to this new generation of administrative leaders in family medicine be?\n\nI basically think some people have it and some people don’t. Some people can get it and some people can never get it. And I don’t understand what makes the difference. Some people like it and some people don’t. I mean how many people would want to do what you’re doing? Very few. But why do you want to do what you’re doing? Well, it’s the same question. I think we just have different skills, different interests, different abilities and we need to capitalize on that. I do think it’s unfortunate that we do not use maybe some of the administrative ability of the non-MDs in departments to better advantage. There is a tendency to tie administrative capability with the MD degree and the clinical background, yet there are so many things that a good, well-grounded family medicine educator who may not be an MD can do to release the MD’s time to go take care of patients. So I think there certainly needs to be a combination. But if you look around, the non-MD administrators are fairly few and far between in family medicine or in any clinical discipline, for that matter. \n\n(Side B.)\n\n…That they can learn the skills?\n\nCertainly we tried to do that. We’ve got that administrative management course that ADFM and STFM sponsors. You know about that? \n\nIt was held here in Tucson once a few years back.\n\nThis is about its third year. There are other disciplines that have done the same thing for their faculty. So I think there are courses and there are short courses and long courses that are helpful. And people who are interested need to avail themselves of those.   \n\nIt’s","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3629/collection_resources/150962/file/278386#t=0.0,630.0"},{"id":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3629/collection_resources/150962/file/278386/transcript/81410/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and if you can make do with what you have, I would really appreciate it. I think you’ve got enough for umpteen articles and probably more than most of the people would even be interested in seeing. And I appreciate your interest in knowing me better and in trying to understand me. But I suspect you probably have more than anybody would ever want to know. \n\nWell, I have a lot of information. I’m not sure I have certainly enough information for an article. I’m not sure I have enough information for my article.\n\nWell, maybe you’ll just have to say I’m an enigmatic. Is that the word? \n\nThat may be.  \n\nI think that’s pretty simple and straightforward. I’m not very deep at all. \n\nI’ll be honest, one of the reasons that I wanted to talk to you is because you have been involved in the development of organizations and I think that’s very important. And you might well notice that the people that I’ve included so far haven’t spoken to that. Maybe they’ve been involved in organizations, but they haven’t spoken to that. But I’m not sure that I still have enough informa-tion and I’m not sure I can get that, to be honest. And I’m not sure I know the questions to ask.\n\nI think you’re looking for something that isn’t there. You know, there’s a job to be done and I just go do it to the best of my ability. Sometimes it’s a great success and sometimes it’s mediocre. So I don’t have a very deep whatever. It’s just something needs to be done, I go do it. I’ve turned down some things that I felt I couldn’t do. Tried to concentrate on the things I think I can do. And done some things I haven’t particularly enjoyed that needed to be done. But most of the time they’ve been enjoyable, especially after they’re over.   \n\nWell, why don’t we leave it at that Marian. I really do appreciate your time.\n\nI’m not trying to be difficult. I just don’t have anything to tell you. \n\nAnd I’m not trying to be difficult either. I thought about asking you what questions would you ask yourself. But I’m not sure that would get to this because maybe we’re working in different places in how we are looking at motivations and whatnot. But you’ve spent quite some time with me and I very much appreciate that.\n\nI’ve enjoyed it. I don’t think I’ve got all the answers that you want, but it’s just not there. And also remember 20 years and you keep collecting information, you forget things 20 years back.   \n\nOh, I forget things two days ago. Again, thanks very much Marian.  \n\n(End.)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3629/collection_resources/150962/file/278386#t=630.0,1598.07009"}]}]},{"id":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3629/collection_resources/150962/file/278385","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 2 of 2 - Bishop_Marian_Pt4_92_b.wav"]},"duration":589.70484,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3629/collection_resources/150962/file/278385/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3629/collection_resources/150962/file/278385/content/2/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/278/385/original/Bishop_Marian_Pt4_92_b.wav?1750873489","type":"Audio","format":"audio/wav","duration":589.70484,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://centerforthehistoryoffamilymedicine.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3629/collection_resources/150962/file/278385","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[]}]}